AP sources: Judge rules Pence must testify before grand jury

Former Vice President Mike Pence (IL file photo)

A federal judge has ruled that former Vice President Mike Pence will have to testify before a grand jury in the Justice Department’s investigation into efforts by former President Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

That’s according to two people familiar with the decision, who spoke Tuesday on condition of anonymity because the ruling remains under seal.

The ruling says Pence will not have to answer questions about his actions on Jan. 6, 2021, when a mob stormed the Capitol building as Pence was presiding over a joint session of Congress to certify Joe Biden’s victory, according to one of the people. However, he would have to testify about any potential illegal acts committed by the former president, the person said.

Pence and his attorneys had cited constitutional grounds in challenging a grand jury subpoena issued weeks ago. They argued that because he was serving in his capacity as president of the Senate that day, he was protected from being forced to testify under the Constitution’s “speech or debate” clause, which is intended to protect members of Congress from questioning about official legislative acts.

Trump’s lawyers had also objected to Pence complying, citing executive privilege.

A Trump spokesman criticized the decision in a statement, accusing the Justice Department of “continuously stepping far outside the standard norms in attempting to destroy the long accepted, long held, constitutionally based standards of attorney-client privilege and executive privilege.”

“There is no factual or legal basis or substance to any case against President Trump,” they added, but did not respond to questions about how Trump’s legal team might respond.

Pence said Tuesday evening that his team was evaluating the judge’s ruling and would make a decision whether to appeal in the coming days.

“I’m pleased that the court accepted our argument and recognized that the Constitution’s provision about speech and debate does apply to the vice president,” Pence said during an appearance on Newsmax. “But how they sorted that out and what other testimony might be required, we’re currently reviewing.”

The sealed ruling from U.S. District Judge James “Jeb” Boasberg sets up the unprecedented scenario of a former vice president being compelled to give potentially damaging testimony against the president he once served. And it comes as Pence has been inching closer to announcing a run for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination — a decision that would put him in direct competition with his former boss.

In addition to the Justice Department probes, Trump is under investigation in Georgia and in New York, where a grand jury has been hearing testimony about hush money paid to women on Trump’s behalf during the 2016 campaign. That grand jury will not take up the inquiry again this week, two people familiar with the matter said Tuesday, meaning any potential vote on a possible indictment will not happen until next week at the earliest.

In Washington, Pence was subpoenaed earlier this year to appear before the federal grand jury investigating election interference. In public appearances, he has cast that action as unconstitutional and unprecedented and has said he would pursue the matter as far as the Supreme Court.

Still, he told ABC’s “This Week” that he might be open to testifying about matters not directly related to his congressional role.

“I’ve actually never asserted that other matters unrelated to January 6 would otherwise be protected by speech and debate,” he told the network. “We’re gonna make that case, but I promise you we’ll respect the decisions of the court.”

A Justice Department special counsel, Jack Smith, is investigating attempts to overturn Biden’s win in the 2020 presidential election. Multiple Trump aides have already appeared before the federal grand jury, as well as before a separate panel examining allegations of Trump mishandling classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago club in Florida.

A spokesman for the special counsel’s office declined to comment. A lawyer for Pence did not return messages seeking comment.

Pence has spoken extensively about Trump’s pressure campaign urging him to reject Biden’s victory in the days leading up to Jan. 6, including in his book, “So Help Me God.” Pence, as vice president, had a ceremonial role overseeing the counting of the Electoral College vote but did not have the power to impact the results.

Pence has said that Trump endangered his family and everyone else who was at the Capitol that day, and history will hold him “accountable.”