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Seton Hall Law School, 1975
Why did you decide to enter the legal profession?
Actually, it was the president of Seton Hall University, Monsignor John Fleming, who encouraged me to apply to Seton Hall Law School. Growing up in Newark, New Jersey, Central Ward, the predominate African American ward, the only lawyers I knew were two prominent African American criminal defense lawyers. This was not an area of the law I had an interest in.
During the summer and fall of my senior year ( 1971) at Seton Hall University, I participated with six African American students and one Chinese woman in a field practicum project in Starkville, Mississippi. We worked on the campaign of a Dr. John Conners, who was seeking to be elected, since Reconstruction, to the Mississippi State Senate. We worked on his voter registration project, trying to convince African American citizens to consider registering to vote. We also drove African American citizens to the County of Oktibbeha Voter Registrar Office.
While registering African American citizens, I witnessed local and state governmental officials, law enforcement, the judiciary, as well as the social society structure, who collectively attempted, and in some cases were successful in obstructing, African American citizens of Starkville, Mississippi, from exercising their right to register vote under the 1964 Voting Right Act. We witnessed the registrar closing the office “for lunch,” directing threats to citizens as to their safety, or the loss of their jobs. Many of the homeowner who housed us were paid “visits” by “prominent citizens.” We were threatened with arrest under sedition under Mississippi laws (state treason). The university wanted us to end our project, which we refused to do. It was my first insight into the compact between the states as to the right of citizens to travel between states.
Monsignor Fleming reminded me of my detailed project paper we submitted about our witnessing the prevention of democracy. He also reminded me of my social activeness in the city of Newark in electing the first African American mayor of the city of Newark (Kenneth A. Gibson) after a citizens’ rebellion in 1967 that devastated the city. He argued that going to law school and becoming a lawyer could have a more lasting impact in my contribution to rebuilding the city.
What does “diversity, equity and inclusion” mean to you?
I understand that corporations see DEI as internal human resource policies and practices for ensuring that employees of different backgrounds (different races, ethnicities, religions, abilities, genders and sexual orientations) are “supported as employees” in their development.
I perceive DEI as three separate steps, yet bonded together, in an employee developing at their place of development:
Diversity means recognizing the presence of differences of persons and culture within the company; recognizing employee differences and incorporating it into their development plan.
Equity means ensuring that the company practices and programs are impartial, fair and provide measurable outcomes for every individual employee.
Inclusion means having programs, policies and follow-up strategies to ensuring that everyone (all employees) feels that they belong in the workplace.
I am not sure the legal profession fully embraces this in their practice of DEI. In the last five years, I have witness at least seven African American lawyers recruited and hired by the major and boutique law firms who left Indianapolis and the firms. The reason they provided: They did not feel welcome or that they “belonged.” They did not feel that the firms’ culture, practices and office politics afforded them the opportunities to fulfill the goals they established for themselves. They felt that they were being relegated to areas of the practice of law that they had no interest in. They did not see themselves in leadership or other employees in all areas of the firm. Many stated that they felt like a “number” for the firms to say, “We have minority attorneys.”
How did you get involved in DEI work, and why have you stuck with it?
“To whom much is given, much will be required” (Luke 12:48).
My parents have always instilled in my brother and sisters that the talents we have been blessed with, we have a responsibility to share our talents, wealth and knowledge to benefit others. As my father always says, “Don’t let the library close and the book vanish.”
I don’t know if my advocacy and mentorship of other Africa American students, law students, attorneys and community work could be considered “DEI work.” I saw it and continue to see it as giving back, following this proverb.
When I enrolled in Seton Hall University as an undergrad, I was part of the “first” large enrollment of African American men. Prior, there were one or two, some enrolled at night school, and most as athletes attending on scholarship. Seton Hall was an all-male college. There were 11 men. Most of us were nonathletes and not on an athletic scholarship. Many European students found it hard to believe that we were not. They always ask, “What sport do you play?”
Many students and faculty members did not believe we belonged. Many did not believe we had the “intellectual capacity” to compete. Some said it to our face. Some said it in subterfuge actions, such as not returning materials on time so we could complete assignments.
At the same time, there were many faculty members who were our supporters. They wanted us to succeed. They made it their duty to tell us that “we belong as a Pirate.” That we could compete. That the university would not have enrolled us if the admissions office did not believe we had the intellectual ability. My mentor and adviser, a history faculty member, encouraged and prodded me to be successful and to be part of student life on campus, not simply stay in my dorm room or leave campus after class. Many of the African American support staff supported us, encouraged us, urged us to stay and to prove “ourselves to the race.”
As a result, when the next year’s class enrolled, we saw it as our responsibility to make sure that they succeeded and to see themselves as “belonging” as a Pirate. We understood that if many of them dropped out or failed, it would be fodder for the argument that we (African Americans) didn’t belong there (on campus) and that they (we) can’t intellectually compete.
Of the 11 in my class, nine graduated.
When I moved to Indianapolis, Indiana, in the summer of 1976, there were approximately 20 African American lawyers in Marion County. Many of them were from the era of the Second World War and the Korean War and had attended law school after both wars. Willard “B” Mike Ransom, Faye Williams, Charlie Walton, Harriette Baily Conn and others took me under their wings, and through their patience, helped me to understand the legal system and its “culture,”(of the Marion County bar and the judiciary) to ensure my success as an attorney. These older African American attorneys stated to me that I could give back by taking under my wing future African American lawyers.
When I was hired at Legal Services Organization, the forerunner of Indiana Legal Services Inc., there were only two other African American lawyers employed: one who was the deputy director and one who practiced. All three of us were former “Reggies” of The Regional Heber Smith Community Fellowship Program, a joint partnership of Harvard University, Howard Law School and the Legal Services Corporation. The program trained lawyers in constitutional law and how to be a community lawyer. They were assigned to legal aid programs and community interest law firms throughout the country.
As we watched the hiring of other lawyers with LSO, for some time no African Americans were hired who were not a “Reggie.” We challenged the administration as to this practice. The executive director challenged us to find African American lawyers and create a hiring process “pipeline.” We hired two African American lawyers and the first Hispanic attorney. We also created an all-year law student internship program. The result was that the first-year internship program resulted in five African American interns being hired. We had the responsibility to ensure their success as interns and their success as new hires so to ensure the continuation of this DEI program.
Thus, my moral obligation to implement this proverb every day: “To whom much is given, much will be required” (Luke 12:48).
What would you say to someone who perceives “DEI” as a business “buzzword”?
If they are willing to engage me to understand what this means and why they have this belief, I am willing to engage them and try to convince them of the benefit of DEI. If they simply “parrot” the rhetoric, I simply move on.
What is the most significant change you’ve seen in the legal profession since you began your career?
Earlier in my career, I had very limited hopes of seeing the appointments of African American men and women to the judiciary and leadership positions within the Marion County and state bar associations. I have been astonished to witness:
• The appointment of African American and Hispanic lawyers to the judiciary and bar leadership positions.
• First woman and African American on the Indiana Supreme Court: Myra Selby, 1995.
• First African American male appointed to Indiana Court of Appeals: Robert D. Rucker, 1991. And a second: Carr Darden, 1994.
• The first Muslim appointed to the Marion County bench: David Shaheed, 1999.
• First Hispanic American male federal judge: Rodolfo Lozano, 1988.
• First African American president of the Indiana State Bar Association: Rod Morgan, 2010.
• First African American (female) appointed to the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Indiana: Tanya Walton Pratt, 2010.
• First African American female appointed to the Marion Superior Court bench: Z. Mae Perkins Jimison,1988.
• First Hispanic male elected as a judge in Marion County: Jose Salinas, 2010.
• First African American female president of the Indianapolis Bar Association: Judge Cynthia J. Ayers, 2006.
• First African American (female) from Indiana on the 7th Circuit of Court of Appeals: Doris L. Pryor, 2022.
I hope these trends continue to surprise me.
What’s the best advice you’ve ever received?
Believe that you belong. Act as you belong. Don’t allow others to have you believe that you don’t belong as a member of the bar.
How do you spend your free time?
Reading foreign newspapers daily for an international understanding and knowledge. I go to plays, musicals and concerts. Traveling inside and outside the U.S. as often as possible. Visiting with the grandchildren.
What was your favorite — and least favorite — class in law school?
My most favorite class was taking Criminal Law and Procedures with Stanley Clark and Raymond Brown, both practicing criminal defense lawyers. My least favorite was Commercial Papers.
You’ve worked on several issues of importance to the Black community in Indianapolis over the years, such as your work with the local chapter of the NAACP and your efforts to keep the Fall Creek YMCA open. Do you have a proudest moment from those efforts?
As president of the local chapter of the NAACP, there are two impactful decisions under my administration that are of importance to the Indianapolis African American community. First is suing the Carmel Police Department, with Ken Falk of the then Indiana Civil Liberties Union as lead counsel for the branch, for their discriminatory police stops of African American drivers traveling through the city of Carmel (Driving While B&B). As a result of that suit, we were able to change the practice and policies through a standing order of the Carmel Police Department regarding traffic stops. More importantly, requiring all patrol cars to have cameras and requiring the Carmel Police Department to maintain and store all film footage from patrol cars for at least two years.
The second was negotiating an “informal policy” between Indianapolis police and the local branch of Nation of Islam regarding “street hawking.” The Nation of Islam had a long-standing tradition of selling their newspaper, “Muhammad Speak,” bean pies and other wares on the corner of East 38th Street and Fall Creek Drive, walking between the stopped cars while the lights were red. The Indianapolis Police Department had a practice of ticketing or arresting their members for impeding traffic, nuisance, etc. As a result, physical conflict between IPD officers and members of the nation often arose. The branch assisted in negotiating an “informal policy” that allowed the nation to continue its long tradition as long as the member was back on the sidewalk when the light turned green.
How do you perceive your work with ILS as contributing to the advancement of DEI?
I don’t perceive my work within ILSI, providing quality representation for clients or mentoring young attorneys, as contributing to the advancement of DEI. I see DEI as the responsibility of the administration and human resources department in the implementation of the policies and practices that fulfill this goal. I see my work in mentoring young attorneys and urging ILSI in recruiting African American lawyers and people of color as fulfilling the goal of affording opportunities to all so that they can help in arguing and advocating for “equal justice under the law for all” for their community, and the broader society as a whole. I see my work in monitoring our DEI practices and policies as ensuring that all who work at ILSI see themselves as valued employees afforded opportunities in development and in practicing high-quality representation, and are treated equally and with respect.
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