Q&A with Christiana Ochoa

There’s a lot of opportunity for academics to move around the country. Why did you decide to stay at IU? What do you love about this law school in particular, this campus and Bloomington?
I have had the opportunity to explore the possibility of other jobs. A very common moment for that to happen is right after somebody gets tenure or right as they’re about to be considered for tenure. And so, in that phase of my career, I was approached a number of times and it caused me to make a matrix of what I value: what I value at the law school, value of this community and sort of what Bloomington is for my kids and family. In making that matrix, it was clear that it’s not that there’s nowhere in the country that I might go or nowhere in the world that I might go, but IU and this campus offers so much of what I’m looking for that it made it so easy to just generally say “no” when I received inquiries without really even having to crack open the door at all. Which just makes life easier in some way, because it just reduces the noise, right? You’re just not thinking about those things if you know that you’re happy here — which I am very happy here.

… In terms of my life as a faculty member with research responsibilities, I have never felt my interests and research inquiries limited by IU. In fact, I’ve only felt them supported and expanded as a result of my being here. So, supported in the sense that there is moral support for the work I do — and it’s not always easy to find that on faculties. At various points, my work has been controversial, and I’ve never felt anything other than morally and professionally supported. And that’s amazing … even when there’s disagreement on the substance, right? What I mean by moral, just to be more clear about that, morally supportive as in, academics need the space for full inquiry of the subjects that they study and that being the normative sort of moral position that the First Amendment and scholarly inquiry require, sort of academic freedom and the protections of the Constitution in order to ensure that we’ve got these freedoms. So that — there’s never been any question. This is a university that stands behind its principles, and that’s incredibly important to me.

There’s also been financial support for the work that I do. …  I’ve had financial support to engage in that research and that’s been amazing. I self-financed most of the film that I made a number of years ago, but that was a personal choice. I am confident that if I had sought funds that I would have I would have been supported and for that, as well. So there’s been no limiting factor, right? And then in addition to that, this is a campus that has a very vibrant, multidisciplinary life. And so if you’re a person whose work requires connection with anthropologists, with journalists, with documentarians, with historians, with political scientists, you can find it here. And that’s amazing and rare. And the Center for Latin American and Caribbean Studies, which I’ve been affiliated with almost since I got here, has also provided me a tremendous well of expertise from which I can draw when I have questions about locations or about networks that can be helped, and I offer assistance in return, part of that community. So that is, you know, also just an incredible resource here. The libraries are just amazing. So it’s an it’s an amazing place for a research faculty member.

On the administrative side, I have felt like the last 10 years of my career had been a constant expansion of my capabilities, and that’s an amazing way to get to engage in your professional life — to feel like there’s just there’s lots of spaces for you to utilize your capacity and your energy in ways that are productive and to help others. For me, that has been incredibly fulfilling. So, I haven’t felt the need to go anywhere. I have really loved it here. And the community is amazing. Both because of Indiana University, and also because of the public schools here and also the other opportunities in town. It’s a great place to raise kids.

I know that you had some faculty members that recommended you to be interim dean, but why did you decide to pursue the official deanship?
I really love this law school and I love my colleagues, and it is incredibly important to me to see them and to see this law school be as great as they can be. And it is not that I believe I’m the only person that can do that — I was very eager and open for the possibility of somebody else being in this position and my supporting their deanship. So, it was not at all, actually, that I thought that I had to or anything of that sort. It was more that I believe I have ideas and I believe I have the spirit and motivation to support my colleagues and to advocate for this law school. And so that motivation is what has led me to want to apply.

I know that when we had spoken before, you said there’s a lot of more external-facing responsibilities as a dean as opposed to maybe some other administrative roles you’ve had before. What does that include?
I am learning. We have relationships with the bench and bar that are incredibly important to us. It’s very important to the law school to maintain a very strong relationship with the Supreme Court and with the courts inside the state of Indiana as well as with the federal court. David Hamilton, who is a 7^th Circuit judge, has his chambers here as one sort of very clear symbol of the importance of maintaining a really close relationship with the bench, the federal and state and judiciary system. … So that that is part of it, and then the Indiana State Bar Association and the community of lawyers — not just in the state but also around the country and globally — that support this law school by sending us students, by employing our students, by keeping us well abreast of developments in the practice so that we can assure that our curriculum is responsive to the needs of those future employers and ultimately the legal profession over time. So those relationships, they’re really, really important. The law school also depends on the generosity of alums and friends who have given up their time and effort and energy and spirit and funds, as well, to the law school, and so those are relationships that matter tremendously to the law school, and it requires time and energy to upkeep them.

What’s your opinion on the Uniform Bar Exam and getting rid of the (traditional state bar) test?
We’ve watched really closely how our students are performing on the bar exam in every jurisdiction every year, and we’re always very proud of our students. We know that they’ve performed well under the prior regime and under the current one. We know that as there’s increased conversation about the next generation of the bar exam, we’re watching that really carefully, as well. It’s incredibly important to us that that we are confident that we’re preparing our students for very viable legal practice and vibrant professional life. And part of that, of course, is being able to pass the bar exam. We’re really attentive to all of those and  all of the results of the bar exams. Ultimately, I don’t have a strong view about the UBE or before or the next-gen bar exam. I just am committed to ensuring that our students are prepared to practice and to take that bar successfully.

You’re the first person of color to hold the deanship position at IU Maurer. I put it in my story original story, when we found you were hired as dean, that we now have people of color as deans at all of Indiana’s law schools, with Dean (Karen) Bravo at IU McKinney and Dean (G. Marcus) Cole at Notre Dame. We’ve never had this before in the state of Indiana. So what does that mean to you personally, and what do you think that maybe either says about the law school or the profession?
I think the first thing to make clear is that, as the dean of the flagship public school in this state, I am clear that I’m the dean for all of our students and for our entire community, and that’s incredibly important. I know, because of the reception that I’ve gotten from our students of color and our alums of color, that it is very, very meaningful to them — and I understand why that is, because when I was a law student I couldn’t have imagined having a dean who is a person of color. It just seemed so far away from the reality that I was in when I was a law student. What I hope it does, what I have heard that it is doing for our students, is that it is expanding their view of what’s possible in their professional lives. And if I can have that effect on our students, and if I can help them feel more like this truly is their law school, then that is an incredibly gratifying experience to be able to do that and be able to reflect to them and reinforce to them that we’re at a moment in history when there’s nothing that is outside of their reach. And ultimately, that’s what it means to me.

… I participated in a conference last summer; it was the first meeting of Latino law professors in the United States, and that was where I learned that my stepping into the interim deanship made me the eighth person holding a decanal position, so I am now the eighth person who has been appointed to be a dean in the United States (that’s) Latina. When I saw that PowerPoint that had the names of those people and I was in it, and it was such a short list, that was a very moving experience. And you know, I will say that it indicates to me that I have had a tremendous amount of privilege and great fortune, because you can’t get here without that. And it also makes me incredibly grateful for the generations that have come before me ,and I am very aware that nobody gets into these positions alone. And it’s definitely true for a person of color that you do not get here alone, and I am grateful for those who have worked to make it possible both on our faculty and across the country.

What are some things right now, in the interim and in the long run, that you’re excited about? What should alumni be excited about with this law school?
This is a law school with a storied and dignified and amazing, stellar past, and I completely believe that the best is yet to come for us. I am really excited about working with our alums and our students and our staff to rethink the most vital roles for law schools in society today. I believe that law schools play a very important role in providing the infrastructure for a democratic society, and that is a role that when there is relative political tranquility inside a country, it is easy to overlook. But when we’ve got the kinds of discourse that are happening inside the United States right now, it becomes more evident how important it is to have well-trained lawyers and legal academics who are free to speak about the importance of the rule of law and the importance of democracy.

And so that’s not the only area this is true. There are other spaces in our society today that are incredibly important and pressing and are causing folks to really ask a lot of new questions. So, what is the role of law in technology? How do we assure that technology is used for the improvement of the human condition rather than for the oppression of the human condition? How do we ensure that that we are defining the best structures to support humanity as we become a much more technological society? So we’re really expanding into a law and technology program. Questions about criminalization, mass incarceration are questions that are also, I think, pressing on the United States right now, particularly the ways that mass incarceration affects Black and brown people disproportionately in the United States, continues a legacy of disparate treatment that needs to be addressed. And so we’ve got a tremendous faculty here that is equipped to handle those questions and address those questions, together with law tech questions, together with the rule of law questions, in ways that I think will really speak to society at large, and I’m excited about defining, “What are the most pressing social issues and what role can we play in assisting the discourse on them and helping to solve social problems??

Are there any challenges that you see with the law school coming into this role? What are some challenges that might be new or that you have seen that you that feel like need to be addressed?
The legal profession is still not adequately represented by underrepresented groups in the population. We still do not have sufficient numbers of people of color in the legal profession. Ensuring that we’ve got diverse communities that feel truly at home in their law schools and in the legal profession is incredibly important. And it’s important for a number of reasons. It’s important to ensure that the legal profession, in all its facets, is a profession that is responsive to the community that needs the assistance of lawyers. That is a constant challenge to ensure that we’re developing the pipelines for students to apply and be prepared to study law. So that is an ongoing and really important challenge that we are aggressively involved in and taking into account and addressing.

So how did you find out that you got this job? How did it all come together for you?
Well, I am aware that there were three fabulous candidates. I think you reported on the three candidates. I think it was from you that I learned who the others were. And they were great candidates, and when I learned who the other candidates were I felt really at ease knowing that our school was going to be in good hands. And that was the first time that I felt like I could relax a little bit, because no matter what the outcome was, the law school and the faculty and staff that I care about here, we were going to be fine. And that said, I still have ideas and hopes for this school that made me not want to, you know, lose the opportunity. Nonetheless, there’s plenty to do as the interim dean and I didn’t have a lot of time to worry about what was all developing. … I knew that I was the third of the three candidates, and so once that was over, I knew that it was just going to be a matter of time. I was aware the provost was hoping that this search could run expeditiously and so I did not figure it would be too much time. The original announcement had stated that they’d hoped to make an announcement by Oct. 1. I didn’t think that would be possible, but I thought sometime not too long after that. And so I received an offer … and I spent the weekend considering the offer, and I had a very, very good conversation with the provost about the role of law schools and his enthusiastic agreement that it’s important to have a top-rate law school on the Bloomington campus, and we had a few more discussions about that, about the relationship with law school to the campus and the campus to law school. And then I was delighted to accept the offer, and it was pretty straightforward, really. Because we have a new provost, we have a new president, it was important to me to get a sense in that conversation of their vision for the Maurer School of Law within Indiana University. I really am excited for the partnership with the campus and the university. They’ve made it really easy to jump in with both feet and my whole heart.

Does anything change Nov. 1 since you were already interim dean?
I think that having had the announcement and having accepted the offer to step into that role, that has changed a bit. My thinking about the interim role, having been here for almost two decades, I am aware of the law school and the projects that we need to undertake in order to position the law school to be as visible and as highly regarded as it possibly can be. And during the interim period, I have been positioning the law school to be able to provide the information to the next team that they would need in order to be able to make the to make those moves. …  I did not feel it was responsible to tie the hands of the next dean with decisions that would last for years with the exception of appointments, which we have been moving ahead on at full speed. The great delight … since I accepted that offer has been that now, when I think about the future of the law school, when I think about the work that we’re doing right now, there’s a continuous flow between now and the planning for our next big moves. Now it’s about setting timelines and about starting to really think about how we’re going to get to a place where we can execute on some plans. And that’s really exciting.

How would you describe your leadership style?
My intention is to take in information — whether that is qualitative information or quantitative information, whether that is coming to me through stories or whether it’s coming to me through data, ensuring that I’ve got all of the information that’s necessary on big decisions and that I’ve consulted the folks who both know most about the situation, whether that is only internally or whether that is externally, and the people who will be most affected by a decision. And with that information in mind, to make the decision or set of decisions that are necessary in order to get the best result. My view is that it’s very important to consult experts and to consult the people who will be most affected, and that unless you consult people on both sides of that, you’re likely to make missteps that you didn’t anticipate. It’s also really important to me to both be willing to take the time to understand that not everybody will be happy with every decision, and also, while sometimes you are aware that people are not happy with decisions and you stick with them, it is also important to me to be open to adjustments when there are effects that you didn’t anticipate or when it looks like a tweak could result in a better outcome. That’s a long way of saying I think that I am, I really believe in deliberation and data and ensuring that the right people are at the table for decisions.

The leadership team — has that changed at all since the beginning of the semester? What does that look like moving forward?
Our leadership team actually hasn’t changed pretty much at all. Donna Nagy became the executive associate dean when I stepped into the interim dean position. Donna has been the executive associate dean before for many years — she was the person who was executive associate dean for most of the years that Austen (Parrish) was the dean. I was the executive associate dean for 18 months of his deanship, but otherwise it was Donna, and Deb Widiss has been the associate dean for research and faculty affairs for a few years and she’s continuing that role. And Ryan Scott has been the associate dean for academic affairs and he’s continuing in that role, as well. So, our leadership team on the faculty side looks the same. And our senior staff is unchanged. So that that is great for a dean who is getting started — to be able to rely on a team that is already experts in their space is incredibly helpful.

Whenever you retire from the deanship … what legacy do you hope to leave here?
I hope that this law school is viewed both internally and externally as being directly and vitally engaged in the most important societal questions. And I believe that all of the other things that I would hope for the law school will flow from that.

Who are some people you’ve leaned on? Some people you really admire that have inspired you whom you’re still in contact with?
I have learned from every leader I’ve worked with and that continues to be the case. And also, I have learned from the passion and commitment of our most committed alums, and I continue to be in touch with them and to gain a lot of inspiration from them. Lauren Robel, who was the dean of this law school — she was actually the interim dean of this law school when I was hired and then the dean of law school by the time I arrived — has provided both active and passive mentorship the entire time I have been an academic and continues to be a good friend and mentor. Kellye Testy, who’s on our board of visitors, is an alum of this law school and also was the dean at the University of Seattle and then the University of Washington, and is now the president of the Law School Admission Council, LSAC, which is an important organization in the United States for legal education. Her insights and advice, not just to me but to deans across the country, is just invaluable. And all of the other leaders that I’ve worked with on campus, from the prior president, the current vice president for international affairs, the current and previous vice provost for faculty and academic affairs and then lots of other current deans and other law schools outside of IU. I feel like I have been, again, just incredibly fortunate to have friends who have been generous with their time and with their ideas and thoughts, and I know that I will benefit from that. I continue to benefit from that on a daily basis.

Is there anything else about yourself or the law school that you would like to add that maybe we didn’t touch on?
I’m just thrilled and honored by the opportunity to serve the law school and the campus and the university and by the trust that this community has put in me to hold this position. I’m really deeply touched by it.•